After two years


#1

I read a lot of posts about 2 years and was wondering if i am not fit to return to my old job or any other job does my insurance just cut all ties with me or are obliged to keep paying ltd til my retirement age. And can my employer let me go as i am deemed unfit


#2

Yes, your employer can terminate you.
Maybe the insurance company will have to pay you until retirement, it depends what the policy says.


#3

Eddie - Many folks have posted here and elsewhere on the internet about “frustration of contract” regarding people on long term disability and the fact their employment can be terminated. Some folks are community members, others are human resources people, whereas others are lawyers who may be writing articles to drum up business from opportunistic employers or worried, disabled employees.

If you believe what you read, one would think it is a given that if you are on LTD and unable to return to any accommodated job role your employment will be terminated at 2, 3 of 4 years. You don’t have any reason to believe me over anyone else, but… despite everything you read, although it might technically be legal in some situations, is not the norm, and is unusual, for a Canadian employee on a legitimate, approved, ongoing LTD claim to be terminated from their employment unless something else extraordinary occurred (i.e. their employer went out of business). Much of what you read is uninformed, incomplete, or case specific. So, for example, if you asked Jammer above to elaborate on any cases she might know about, she might say, “Yes, your employer can terminate you and my two friends at the Province of X who are on LTD, were terminated from regular employment and went on early, unreduced medical retirement pension, fully-indexed to inflation starting at age 50 with full medical, dental, life insurance etc. benefits.” That scenario is different than employment termination where your employment relationship terminates completely, but you continue to get LTD from the insurance company.

I agree with Jammer, your LTD booklet, or contract/policy, outlines how long your LTD could be paid.


#4

Jammer is a he. :slight_smile:

I think David has said employment is typically terminated as “frustrated” after 4 years.
I don’t know first hand but that seems reasonable


#5

Jammer

I’m so glad you clarified. I have no idea why I thought you were a she, but now I know you are a he. Perhaps it is stereotyping, since you seem to be so supportive of other members!

I’m fairly certain that David has never stated that EMPLOYMENT is typically terminated as “frustrated” after 4 years on sick leave or LTD. I now know why there have been so many forum members who have posted notes assuming that it’s a given that their employment will be terminated due to “frustration of contract”.

Attached below is David’s post that I think you might be referring to and, if you read it carefully, it does not say that employment is typically terminated after 4 years. Read his second paragraph very carefully. The next paragraph discusses “holding your job for up to 4 years.” Holding your job and terminating your employment are different things. Holding your job means they may not hire a permanent replacement into your exact position as the “manager of the YYCZZ department” or “Grade 4 teacher in Room 3.” Terminating your employment means you are no longer an employee of the company. You will know if your employment is terminated as your employer will meet with you or will send you a formal letter. Your eligibility for ongoing pension accrual stops. You cannot belong to the health and dental plan. Your group life insurance stops (although you can convert up to $200K to a very expensive plan without evidence of insurability). The implications of employment termination for a disabled employee are clear, and can be catastrophic. The loss of extended health benefits and life insurance can hurt very badly.

There are lots of employees on approved leave of absence, typically LTD, from their employment who no longer have an identified job, manager, department or even a building to return to and it’s quite possible that nobody in the company even remembers who they are as information about them, and their status, is kept strictly confidential.

David’s note (sorry, I couldn’t find the link process)

"Unless you are in a union, then employers can terminate at any time as long as they give you reasonable notice of termination or pay you severance to cover the reasonable notice period. The only limitation on this is that employers can’t terminate someone for one of the protected grounds of discrimination. These protections are given through human rights laws in each province. This is important because people on sick leave can fall under the protection of the “disability discrimination” clause.

So, technically your employer could terminate your employment while you are off on sick leave…as long as they could prove your termination had nothing to do with your sickness. In reality, it is very rare for an employer to ever terminate an employee on sick leave because they want to avoid any appearance of discrimination.

So what happens is that the employer will allow you to say on a sick leave for as long as you continue to give them confirmation from a doctor that you remain medically unable to do your job. They have to hold your job for up to 4 years and have an obligation to try and accommodate you to return to work with them in your old job or some other job better suited to your limitations and abilities.

How long you can stay on the company medical plan depends on your employer’s policy on this. I have seen it that people can stay on as long as they want and in other cases it can be as little as 3 months."

I may have misinterpreted David’s note and I’d love to hear his input.

Cheers!


#6

Maybe I read this wrong:


Bottom line is I wouldn’t count on remaining employed.


#7

Yes, I believe you did interpret that note incorrectly. You need to read the entire stream of questions and answers to understand the context. David did NOT say that employees on LTD are typically terminated due to frustration of employment at 4 years.

David has said, and I agree with your statement above, that you cannot count on remaining employed in every situation. There is a technical chance in some specific cases, although rare, that an employee on a legitimate, approved, LTD claim will be terminated from his employment when it is absolutely clear that there is no chance that he will ever return to any job, even with accommodation with his employer.

Disabled people have lots to worry about without thinking it is inevitable the hatchet is coming down on them at 2, 3 or 4 years. You need to focus on getting as well as you can and returning to work as fast as you can if there is any possibility.


#8

That is the extended health group plan?
Could the company remove you from that but keep you “employed”?
Why would that be useful?


#9

Yes, absolutely you can be an employee and not on the company medical plan. It is very different for every company. You sometimes stay on the company medical plan (also known as extended health plan), but you may need to pay the “premiums” in a few, mean in my opinion, companies. If your LTD has not yet been approved, or if it has been terminated but you are appealing it, you may need to temporarily pay the extended health care premiums. Once your LTD is approved, or reinstated as the case may be, your extended health care premiums should be reimbursed.

There are TONS of reasons you still want to be an employee even, in the unusual chance that you can’t remain a member of the employer health plan. Your own group life insurance and spousal/dependent life insurance is valuable, inexpensive and often irreplaceable, especially any amount over $200K. The value of ongoing pension accrual can be huge, especially if you are in a defined benefit pension plan and especially if your contributions are WAIVED while on approved LTD claim. If your annual defined benefit pension statement shows a commuted value don’t be fooled by subtracting this year’s value from last year’s value and think that’s the value of what you are earning. Please be aware that this amount is the MINIMUM value that the pension is worth and the real value of what you gain every year could be AT LEAST twice what you think (too technical to outline here).

Today as an employee, when you apply for a loan or mortgage or a rental apartment you are still an employee of Company XYZ. This is an absolutely true statement. You can get a verification of employment from your company and it will state your income and will state that you are currently on a leave of absence. Try renting an apartment as a relatively young person without an “employer” even if you have lots of assets, perfect credit, wonderful references and a very high monthly income…explain that you are disabled… Try doing this in Toronto where occupancy rates are low. Unfortunately, the discrimination against disabled people is enormous, so don’t wish for any more grief than you already have. Nobody knows how long you’ve been off or how long you will be off. It’s none of their business. The fact you are on LTD or receive CPPD also means nothing. Being on CPPD means your illness is severe, prolonged and indefinite, but it does not mean you will never return to work or you are unable to support yourself or pay your bills. Disability hits people of all ages at all income levels, but everyone gets painted with a negative brush. I speak from personal experience on this…

While you are an employee you continue to earn years of service which means a lot for other technical reasons. Your company could be sold to another one with different, wonderful polices and benefits (which could include… the incredibly rare and very valuable retiree extended medical health care plan which is absolute GOLD for any retiree, especially a disabled one).

The MOST IMPORTANT reason could be that many people do get better, and miracles can happen to anyone, even those who feel there’s no hope they will ever return to any job, even an accommodated one. When you are ready to return to work (thinking positively), your LTD and CPPD will end and you will need to return to work (unless you are financially very well off). If you are still an employee of Company XYZ, you have the very best chance of successfully returning to work, stability and happiness. Unfortunately, if you no longer have an employer, it is very hard after being off on disability for a long time to try to find a job and return to work.

I’m writing this note long because I CRINGE every time I see somebody post a note postulating about terminating their employment (often its the enticement of some severance which they may NEVER receive and they have no idea of the value of their current employee benefits).

Of course, my entire commentary above is very general. You cannot trust or act on anything you see posted on the internet or in media, including anything I say. You need to receive personal, expert advice as the stakes are extremely high. Please think about your future, as you deserve a good one!


#10

Brilliant advice! Thank-you


#11

I’m guessing you work for the government. :slight_smile:
I don’t.
I have a defined contribution pension plan and the minimum contribution the company makes is not much.
The life insurance is nice but I’ll be dead when it is cashable.
The extended health insurance is used a lot. :slight_smile:


#12

You are getting some good answers in here. Check out our information on Employment Rights & Disability Benefits where we discuss these very issues, including the concept of Frustration of Employment Contract.

Your insurance company may try to cut ties with you after two year, but you may still qualify for benefits. You can appeal their decision and possibly using the legal process to force them to pay you.


David Brannen

Disability Lawyer with Resolute Legal

The response posted above is based on the limited factual information made available and is not intended as a full and complete response to the question. The only reliable manner to obtain complete and adequate legal advice is to consult with a lawyer, fully explain your situation, and allow the lawyer enough time to research the applicable law and facts required to give an adequate opinion. The basic information provided above is intended as a public service only, a full one-on-one discussion with a lawyer should be done before taking any any action. The information posted on this forum is available to the viewing public and is not intended to create a lawyer client relationship with any person. If you want one-on-one advice, please click here to request a free consultation or call toll free 1-877-282-5188 to speak with a member with our disability claim support team.


#13

Some judges have ruled that frustration of contract can’t happen in situations when a person is on an approved long-term disability claim.

If you are getting LTD would the decision to fire you for “frustrated employment” be made based on previous legal decisions in a person’s area?

If a person is fired for frustration, why would a person sue?


#14

You would need to consider it on a case by case bases and base decision on chances of success. Also, you need to consider even if you do win, the amount of money owed may not be enough to justify the lawsuit in the first place. These cases are very fact dependent so you can’t make any general assumptions on the strength of one case compared to another.


David Brannen

Disability Lawyer with Resolute Legal

The response posted above is based on the limited factual information made available and is not intended as a full and complete response to the question. The only reliable manner to obtain complete and adequate legal advice is to consult with a lawyer, fully explain your situation, and allow the lawyer enough time to research the applicable law and facts required to give an adequate opinion. The basic information provided above is intended as a public service only, a full one-on-one discussion with a lawyer should be done before taking any any action. The information posted on this forum is available to the viewing public and is not intended to create a lawyer client relationship with any person. If you want one-on-one advice, please click here to request a free consultation or call toll free 1-877-282-5188 to speak with a member with our disability claim support team.